What are your experiences of N H

[liz]

Hello,

I thought I would open this section

I've been interested in this subject for many years since reading some books by Henry Blake (now sadly deceased) about his observations of the language of the horse and how he applied this knowledge in his daily dealings with these wonderful creatures. They are well worth a read and I expect you can get them on Amazon.

In more recent years i've looked at various "natural horsemanship" methods with varying degrees of interest. I've attendeed 3 or 4 of Pat Parelli's confernces but whilst I enjoyed his showmanship and his undoubted ability with horses, I had a lot of reservations about the methodology. I also learned about Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks and liked that approach a LOT more. I belong to the Intelligent Horsemanship association and regularly meet up with other members in the West Country. I've also been to a couple of garden parties at Kelly's home where, this year, Monty was a visitor. He was great fun - where DOES he get that energy at 74 years old! He was teaching one or two people how to rope a cow - using a chair and a willing human! Some of us, including Kelly and Monty, went to the local pub in the evening and a good time was had by all. The event was to raise money for the associations chosen charities for the year.

Other people I've seen working are Mark Rashid (didn't do it for me, I'm afraid!) and Perry Wood - he's an excellent communicator and terrific fun.

In recent years, a lady I know, Joanna Day, who has roots in the traditional methods was impressed by a couple of people trained by Monty who helped a colt that neither she nor her OH could fathom. As a result, she decided that al though she is a FBHS, an BD and BE accredited trainer, she ought to learn more abiut other trainers. I saw her at a clinic run by Perry Wood writing copious notes an she told me the story. The outcome was a book - The Fearless Horse - which describes her journey and how she has applied what she learned.

Another thing I realised was that traditional when correctly done is not all bad. I was trained as a very young child in the 1950s by an old cavalry officer and it was drummed into us that the horse ALWAYS comes first. If we were hot and thirsty after a long ride, so was the horse. The horse HAD to be cooled and watered before us! We were not taught to hit the horse - that was, and is, bad horsemanship. We carried crops - they were to open gates or to help keep a horse straight or to emphasise an aid but NOT to beat the horse. You get the drift.

I could go on - and on - and on.........................................

Anyway, that's an opener!

[avril]

Great opening, Liz. All goes to show there are many ways to experience NH. Traditional as well as classical methods have much to contribute to horsemanship, it doesn't necessarily mean one or the other.

[lisandsaf]

I have seen Monty Roberts. Kelly Marks and of course Mr Pat Parelli.
Nothing gave me more inspiration to change my horsemanship than PP. I was so impressed with his demonstrations and what he achieved that i decided to study Parelli and have adopted his methods with my horse. The results have been staggering and we both thrive on our new found communication.
I feel very passionately about his methods and can speak from personel experience that his training is not gimmecky and created just for a show. Everything he does has a motive and a reason however small and when I discovered Parelli i felt someone had turned a light on for me. !
Lisa and Saf

[liz]

I do know others who feel the same way, Lisa, and I'd never say they were wrong. His methods suit some people but not me! I have to agree with PP when he says that a big problem, as far as he is concerned (and I heard him say this!) is that people do not work through his programme quickly enough. Most of the people I know simply haven't progressed beyond level 1 or 2 and his biggest disciple of my acquaintance and who studied at his centre in Colorado for 6 months in all has moved on though, of course, she still adheres to his methods to some extent.

Anyway, a huge "Well done" to you and Saf for building such a rewarding relationship and onwards and upwards, as they say!

I must add that I helped out with the Parelli group in Somerset for a couple of years so did give it a fair amount of my time but remained unconvinced and never used it with my own horses. The people were very nice, though

[Joy]

Hi,
I have to agree that PP is brilliant! I have the whole set of dvds etc although I feel the patterns are not worth buying-the success series I find is the most informative!

I must say that I do not use all of his methods as when Bella & Dolly came to me they were no trouble to catch, lead, groom etc and I felt that in doing the programme I would be trying to fix what was not broken if you see what I mean!!!

Although as a relatively new horse owner the PP methods are the ones which I got involved with from the start so there is a lot to be said for it in my book!!!

I feel kindness, leadership and consistency leads to a great partnership!!

Happy hacking

Kind regards

Joy, Bella & Dolly

[lisandsaf]

What an interesteing article by Mark Rachid, in the news pages of MSC home page,,
It really does make you think about things and compare natural to sythentic husbandry.. for our equine friends..
unfortunately the world we live in today does not allow our horses to roam free without boundaries and restrictions, if only that could be!!!

I understand his comments re riding the horse in the first place but the same could be said for any animal that humans have domesticated such as the dairy cow constantly in calf to provide us humans with a constant supply of milk, I could go on

I beleive as long as our animals are treated with the respect they truely deserve and are not beaten, starved or kept isolated without companship then "Natural or traditional keeping" methods really is a personel choice,

Whichever way is choosen to handle or ride the horse, exposure to strange things, sounds or noises can, as long as introduced carefully ,only be of benefit to the modern day rider..

Lisa and Saf

[Dawn Perkins]

Hi, I have posted on the forum before but, being new to it, made a bit of a mess of it and omitted to introduce myself. I have been interested in natural horsemanship for several years and did a two-day course with Vanessa Bee of Positive Horsemanship in Devon in 2006. Vanessa does not promote one particular method and emphasises that there is only good and bad horsemanship. Although I don't have my own horse, I have been interested in the Jaime Jackson "Paddock Paradise" system for a long time and would certainly use it if I ever had a horse and land of my own, as it protects valuable hay-making areas from poaching whilst allowing constant exercise and no need for "starvation paddocks". I have also eagerly followed Nic Barker (co-author of "Feet First"), who uses this method to rehabilitate horses with conditions such as navicular syndrome and deep flexor tendonitis. She is a barefoot trimmer (although she insists that the trimming forms by far the smallest part of the rehabilitation and is only done minimally), who has successfully treated hunters, eventers and at least one showjumper - many of them thoroughbreds and thoroughbred crosses - by removing their shoes and using the track system. One owner, whose horse had been successfully rehabilitated and was happily competing barefoot, was asked by a colleague, "So when can you put its shoes back on?" She was completely bemused by this as the horse was completely sound and Nic had proved that, with correct management (hay, lots of exercise and the minimum of grass) it didn't need shoes! She has a website rockleyfarm.co.uk and is currently providing the data for a research project in conjunction with the University of Liverpool and EqWest Veterinary Hospital where they are following the progress of ten rehabilitation cases. The results will be published when the tenth horse has completed its follow-up re-vetting. Nic's blog is absolutely fascinating and she completely disagrees with Mark Rachid's assertion that it is selective breeding which has caused modern horses' hooves to weaken. She is convinced that the causes are a diet high in fructans and starches (grass and hard feed) and lack of constant exercise. She says that every horse has the blueprint of a perfect hoof and that, with rehabilitation, the hoof begins to grow naturally into the correct shape for the horse. There is video footage via links to Youtube and on the site itself. The co-author of "Feet First", Sarah Braithwaite, who is based in North Wales, has a similar website. They are not anti-farrier and understand the desperation to find an instant solution to problems which cause pain and lameness but are certain that the answer lies in management which allows the removal of shoes. Nic is based on Exmoor and some of the footage shows hunting on Exmoor on barefoot horses and trotting and cantering on the really stony tracks which cover the moor) - out of interest if nothing else. One of the horses shown hunting is 25 years old and came to her for rehablitation - I believe for navicular syndrome. As you may gather from the fact that I am posting here, I have also followed Avril's marvellous site with equal interest and admiration!

[nellie]

Hi Dawn! Welcome to the forum .

I returned to horses after a 10 year break and haven't owned a horse for nigh on 15 years. I know almost nothing about the Parelli system but have read one of Mark Rashid's books, which I really enjoyed, and I have been to 2 Monty Roberts demos. The first was back in the 1990s and the second was maybe last year or 2 years ago (I can't remember!). Monty really impressed me, but Kelly Marks did not leave a good impression on me nor on many others in the audience. I think it must have been an "off" day for her, which is a shame.

I have to admit to getting confused between Natural Horsemanship and Intelligent Horsemanship and whatever it is that the Parellis do. What I do know is that I like what Avril writes about her approach to training horses: staying within their thresholds (so having the ability to read the horse is a must), but challenging them, and having the patience, and confidence, to repeat, repeat and repeat again so that they learn to have confidence within themselves as well as in the rider and the world around them.

Having owned a horse who had been trained by an ex-mounted policeman, I can vouch for the total delight of riding a horse that has been trained to accept all sorts of scary things with equanimity. The irony is that I suppose many would have considered him as old school but I suspect his methods were very similar to Avril's. So, I have to agree with Liz that traditional, when correctly done, is not bad: although I suspect much of what is considered "new" or "modern" is just the real "old" skills being rediscovered by in-tune individuals with much more access to the media than the horsemen and women of the past .

That, however, does not stop me being interested in the new approaches to horses and their care: I just love reading about it all! And I must contact my cousin in Australia. She is a barefoot trimmer and very enthusiastic about it, it would be great to pick her brains (especially at £80 for a set of shoes round here!!!).

[Dawn Perkins]

Thank you for the welcome, Nellie! I agree with everything in your post. I have learned so much from Avril's Diary of a Safecob in Training and Toby's Diary. I wish I had known years ago what I have learned since last October! I am interested to know about your cousin in Australia because I have fairly recently come across Cynthia Cooper's website (naturalhorseworld.com). She is based in Tasmania and has vast experience in training equines (including a zebra) using natural horsemanship principles. She is also a barefoot trimmer and has developed her own bitless bridle and bitless noseband, which can be attached to a conventional bridle. They seem to me to be an excellent design and are now sold over here. I also, via her site, came across the SmartRider safety stirrups (also available here now through SmartRider UK), which are a completely different design to the safety stirrups which have been available up to now. They won an award in Australia, apparently. The world of horsemanship seems to to me to be opening up now in such a way that new ideas are being looked at whilst, at the same time, the knowledge and experience of the true, classically trained horsemen and women is being properly valued and appreciated. In time, I hope this will mean that the best of both worlds will gradually start to co-exist and that bad practice in both fields will become a thing of the past, for the overall benefit of horses. Thank you again for your kind welcome.

[angelac]

Hi Dawn
I enjoyed reading through your post and agree that it is great the way the world of horsemanship is opening up.
For the past 3yrs I have taken my tricky little cob to the annual clinic of natural horseman, Mike Barker. What a difference it made to his general manners.I have a little horse who is so much easier to handle on the ground.
The last time I also had a home session which resulted in me hacking out alone again for a whole three months. Prior to this the idea had become unimaginable.
Sadly I ran into some problems and really needed a top up, but Mike was also based far away in Tasmania. Even sadder he has since passed away. He will be a big miss to the world of horses.
I do at least have useful tools and will pick up the challenge again sometime soonish.
I am also going to book a consultation with horse communicator Isabel Hogton.
Wonder if you or any members have any experiences of horse whispering type input?
I am a little sceptical but wanting to keep an open mind and feel theres little to lose apart from the fee!!
Anyway as I said enjoyed your post.
Bye just now Angelac

[Dawn perkins]

Hi Angelac,
I was very interested to read your post. Like Nellie, I have not been actively involved with horses for some years. I think Nellie has had more riding experience than I have but I have been fascinated over the years by the psychological approach to management and training. I began with an interest in police horse training and started buying and reading books such as Henry Blake's book, "Thinking with Horses", "Healing for Horses" by Margrit Coates, "Getting in TTouch" by Linda Tellington-Jones, "Teach Yourself Horse" by Heather Simpson, "Perfect Partners" by Kelly Marks (although, like Nellie, I found her disappointing in the flesh) and various others. I have also scoured the internet for what I feel are good, reliable websites, which obviously include Avril Tighe's site! I genuinely feel that Cynthia Cooper's website naturalhorseworld.com is excellent and contains so many informative articles on natural methods of training, including training a foal at liberty. I also feel that Nic Barker's website rockleyfarm.co.uk is excellent, extremely informative and that her barefoot trimming is based on sound physiological principles. I think many "problems" in horses arise from shoes, bits and saddles, although of course this is not always the case. Wendy Wainwright has a very interesting website on bitless bridles, explaining the relative merits of each and also explaining how the trigeminal nerve passes over the bars of the mouth and is only covered by a very thin layer of skin. This nerve passes through various other parts of the head and mouth and a bit resting on the bars of the mouth can therefore cause some horses irritation or pain in different parts of the head and mouth. (I sound as though I know what I am talking about, don't I?! Obviously I don't but I try to glean information from those who do!)
I was very interested to read about Isobel Hogton and Mark Barker. I know that both Cynthia Cooper in Tasmania and Vaness Bee in Devon have each said that Ken Faulkner in Australia was one of their most influential mentors.
We have a healer in this area and it is astonishing what she is able to tell owners about experiences which have lodged in their horses' minds and caused ongoing problems of behaviour. I do not know what area you live in but Vanessa Bee of Positive Horsemanship and Emma Tarrant, both in Devon, are excellent, although they do not use healing. Avril also uses many techniques which would be described as natural horsemanship and seems to be absolutely brilliant at producing safe, reliable horses. Have you read Toby's Diary or Diary of a Safecob in Training? They are riveting reads!
I do hope you are able to find just the right trainer for your cob. I am sure Avril would be able to point you in the right direction! Do keep us up to date with progress!

[avril]

With regard to the diaries, I felt Chatty's wasn't finished. I continued to work with her, using a combination of timeless classical principles and the more intuitive approach, an aspect of NH. We put the videos together to show how she developed from a raw green horse into a mentally and physically balanced safe ride.

There is an update from her new owner on the diary page. She plans to do introduce her to le trec, an ideal next step activity for cobs who are educated in this way.

[angelac]

Hi Dawn
I am based in the far north ,so well out of Avril's area.
I love the site though. I just stumbled on it by chance and it seems to get better by the week.
Like you I really enjoy the diaries. They are so interesting and are a lovely combination of useful tips and fun.
I think I am really quite addicted to them now.
I love to see how Toby is getting on and taking useful info from the accounts.
I love the other sections too esp the advive on choosing a new horse and listening to your gut feeling. Probably like many others, I can be inclined to rationalise how I feel too much.
Also plan to have a look at the sites you mention and the books in next bit of free time
I have several of Kelly marks books and did enjoy seeing her at the Your Horse event a few years back.
Oh well off to tackle some chores.
Bye for now
Angela

[nellie]

Hi Avril,

Thank you so much for the pointer to Chatty's new owner's letter - and the videos - it is all so interesting.

[nellie]

Sorry, hit submit before intended!

Angelac - If I remember right, one of Avril's cobs travelled all the way to Scotland. I'm sure there is a photo somewhere on site of her at her new home with the most wonderful scenery in the background . So perhaps you are not so far away if you are "only" in the North of England !!!!

Anyway, I won't tempt you anymore than the site already does.

Dawn - I'm not sure how much riding experience you think I have! It does spread over many years (rather like the muffin top round the top of my jeans), (for years read decades ), but there have been significant gaps!

I'm going to look up some of those books and sites you mention and I will follow-up with my cousin... soon .